Ask the Experts – February 2017

QUESTION

I’m a homeowner in Berkeley, Calif. On my recently completed bath renovation, we’ve found that the shower curb collects water and it takes a long time to dry even with ventilation. I’m trying to determine if this condition meets industry standards or if it would legitimately be considered a defect. Someone online recommended NTCA may be able to provide help.

ANSWER

Thank you for contacting The National Tile Contractors Association. The TCNA Handbook’s wet area guidelines state that horizontal surfaces must be sloped to direct water to the drain. The slope recommended is no less than 1/4” per foot.

I couldn’t tell a whole lot from the picture you sent, but it appears there is metal endstop trimming out your curb. If that endstop edge is above the edge of the tile, it can sometimes act as a dam on curbs that are sloped. Many shower systems incorporate surface waterproofing that lays right under the tile and can be easily damaged by removing tile. I would suggest tiling over the existing curb tile using a chair rail or some type of specialty trim to maintain the integrity of the waterproofing below the surface. Guidelines for tiling over the existing tile are found in the renovation section of the TCNA Handbook in section TR711. Scarification or primers are sometimes needed. And always make sure to use the correct adhesive for tiling over tile in a wet area.

– Robb Roderick, NTCA trainer/presenter

QUESTION, part 2

Thank you very much for the prompt and helpful response! Much appreciate the advice to tile over rather than break tile and risk waterproofing damage.

You are right – there is a stainless steel edge on the curb; it seems to be proud and acting as a dam.

Regarding the tile-over repair – a question. The manufacturer says the 24” x 24” tile we are using is slightly bowed for water runoff. I suspect the current ponding is related to this. Can this type of tile be cut for successful use on a curb like this, and if so are there standards for how to do this correctly so the repair is successful?

ANSWER, part 2

The tile you have selected appears to be pretty typical as far as inherent warpage. A byproduct of the firing process in tile manufacturing is that tiles become bowed or warped. This normally manifests itself with the center of tile being the high point and the edges being the low points. There are ANSI standards for what is and is not allowable for warpage. Considering you purchased the material from a reputable manufacturer, I’m sure it would follow in the acceptable guidelines for warpage, since this company has a great track record of offering quality tile.

As far as doing the repair within standards, the requirements are for the existing installation to be sound, well bonded, and without cracks. All soap scum, wax, or coatings must be removed from the surface prior to installation. You may want to scarify or prime the surface of the tile prior to the installation to increase bond strength. Always select a mortar that is approved for tile-over-tile installations. Incorporate your 1/4” per foot minimum slope in the new assembly. Most curbs are 6” so this would equate to a minimum of 1/8” drop.

– Robb Roderick, NTCA trainer/presenter

Ask the Experts – January 2017

QUESTION

Attached are pictures of an exterior grout leaching problem we are having on concrete, waterproofed with a membrane with a latex-modified thinset mortar and sanded grout with additive. Latex leaching (or efflorescence?) came through the grout not long after installation.
We removed all the grout three weeks ago and covered with plastic as you can see. It never got wet for those three weeks and we had fans on the tile. Yet when a penknife was pulled through the joints, the material was still a little damp and the latex is still coming through.
We feel it is in the mortar we used. A manufacturer rep is supposed to look at it. The manufacturer said for us to use unsanded grout with an additive. I do not feel like that will work at all – the latex is leaching through, even with no grout in the joints.
We felt like an epoxy grout would be the answer to fix this. What is your professional opinion on this?

ANSWER

My suspicion is that this is latex migration coming from the mortar.
This does not necessarily mean it is a problem with the mortar itself. I suspect the latex in the mortar may not have been allowed to fully coalesce and may continue to be an issue. Have you lifted a tile to examine the coverage and condition of the bond coat?
It is good that you have asked the manufacturer for a review. They will be able to assist you in determining whether this is efflorescence or latex migration, and its source. If the residue is powdery and salty it is efflorescence. If it is hard and more difficult to remove it is likely latex migration.
It is important to solve the problem then select the grout. Trying to lock in the migration with epoxy grout is not necessarily a cure for the issue. The source of the efflorescence or latex migration must be determined then remedied to ensure a long term successful solution.
If epoxy is eventually selected as a grout, ensure it is rated for UV exposure on an exterior installation.
– Mark Heinlein
CTI #1112,
NTCA Technical Trainer/Presenter

Ask the Experts – December 2016

SponsoredbyLaticreteQUESTION

We have a contractor who used two different tiles. He bought the 4” x 4” tile elsewhere but after installation it appears to have changed color. The tile he bought from another source at the bottom, stayed looking like it did prior to installation. What could have caused this?

ANSWER

glazed-wall-tile-ateThe color of some tiles can change with grouting, for example this can occur with soft, natural stones and unglazed, honed or polished through-body ceramic/porcelain or quarry tiles (and/or if grout release wasn’t used).

It appears the tiles shown in this installation are glazed ceramic. You stated the two sizes of tile were procured from two different distributors. It is possible that even if the tiles are from the same manufacturer they may have been manufactured on different dates or in different lots. That being the case, the glaze may have a slight variation between the two. The glaze also appears to be different on the bullnose tile.

If spare, uninstalled 4” x 4” and 3” x 6” tiles from this job, new from their cartons, are placed side by side, I suspect you may notice the difference in color between them. Have you checked to see if the two tiles are from the same manufacturer and what their date of manufacture and manufacturer lot numbers are? This information should be available on the end flaps of the tile cartons. If the manufacturer, date of manufacture or lot numbers differ, there may well have been a difference in glaze color out of the box that wasn’t noticed until the tiles were installed and grouted

It is important to verify that all of this information aligns between all cartons of tile before beginning the installation.

Mark Heinlein – CTI #1112, NTCA Technical Trainer/Presenter

QUESTION

I need to know what the TCNA standard for slope in a commercial kitchen is.

ANSWER

The minimum slope for floor drains is 1/4” as specified by ANSI A108.01 2.2, which directs compliance with ANSI A112.21. The Universal Plumbing Code also specifies minimum slope of 1/4” per 12”.

The mortar bed is to be of a uniform thickness. ANSI A108.01 2.6.1.4 and 2.6.1.5 include a chart and discussion of minimum and maximum mortar bed thicknesses based on the service rating of the floor. For a commercial kitchen rated as Extra Heavy/Heavy, the bed thickness is 2-1/2” minimum to 3-1/2” maximum. Appropriate size and gauge galvanized welded wire mesh (i.e. 2” x 2” 16 gauge) must be suspended as reinforcing wire in the mortar bed. If the mortar bed will be in excess of 3-1/2” thick, heavier reinforcing, larger aggregate, richer mix and greater compaction may be required and must be detailed by the specifier.

To keep the mortar bed from becoming too thick or the slopes to a drain too long, multiple drain locations should be planned based on the layout of the kitchen.

Mark Heinlein – CTI #1112, NTCA Technical Trainer/Presenter

Ask the Experts – November 2016

SponsoredbyLaticreteOne of the benefits NTCA offers is its technical staff, and seasoned know-how that can be tapped to address problems and questions. Here’s an example of the profusion of information from the NTCA technical staff for the questions of one Hawaiian homeowner. – Lesley Goddin

QUESTION:

I am a homeowner in Hawaii looking at installing a large-format porcelain tile floor (planks are ~9” x ~47”). I have two questions.

My first question is what is the NTCA convention for pricing that tile install? Is the convention for an install price per square foot based on the actual footprint of the rooms (actual tile on floor when job is done) or does it also apply to the tile waste?

As an example:

– Lets say I have a simple 25’ x 40’ room: 1,000 sq. ft., once the tile is installed.

– Lets say I plan on 10% waste. So I purchase 1,100 sq. ft. of tile

Would your convention for the installers bid price be X dollars per sq. ft. based on the 1,000 sq. ft. or based on the 1,100 sq. ft.?

My second question is what sort of waste percent should I expect for that large-format 9” x 47” tile?

Thank you for your time and feedback.

plank-tile-ateANSWERS

We have three technical trainers on staff, and they are all coming off of extensive travel dates for training programs, so I am taking a shot here on this question, and they will likely provide additional or a slightly varied response.

In my experience on this subject, the labor bid for the job generally covers the 1,000 actual square footage of the room in the bid. However, if you have a 10% waste factor for materials, you would be charged for the 1,100 sq. ft. of material. My customers usually ordered about 3-5% in a straight-cut square pattern and 7-10% with a pattern design, like what you are describing below. This depended on room size and how it is laid out. I will see if they chime in with a different response but this has been my experience in the past.

Bart Bettiga, 

NTCA executive director

Bart has provided you correct information. I would add that with a plank tile such as your 9” x 47,” I may consider estimating upwards toward 12% depending on the pattern, obstacles, squareness of the room(s), etc. This is especially critical for special-order material to ensure it is all from the same manufacturing lot. Any remaining tile should be retained as “attic stock.”

There is not a standard pricing convention for labor. A contractor may base the labor rate on square footage, hourly or daily rates. A qualified contractor using Certified Tile Installers will be very familiar with the intricacies of installing large-format tile. Large tile is not necessarily faster or easier or less expensive to install. Additional substrate preparation is almost always required to ensure a quality installation based on tile industry standards.

The NTCA does have member contractors in Hawaii. Please search for them on our web site at: http://www.tile-assn.com/search/custom.asp?id=2759

To locate a Certified Tile Installer please search the Ceramic Tile Education Foundation at: https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/find-certified-tile-installers

I hope this helps.

Mark Heinlein – CTI #1112, NTCA trainer/presenter

In my area, most installers are paid for the amount of material they use rather than the square footage that they cover. They do have to handle, cut, and dispose of that tile and usually will include it in their invoice.

As far as percentage waste to figure, two things should be considered: the layout of the area and the pattern to be installed. One single square room usually requires very little waste, while an installation with many corridor and rooms would require more.  Also a straight-lay pattern requires very little waste, while a herringbone pattern or an installation on a 45-degree would require much more. I figure somewhere between 5 and 15% waste considering all the factors just mentioned.

On a commercial project, the spec book often times calls for 5% attic stock to be left on site at completion. If that’s the case you would also want to add that on to your estimated waste amounts.

Robb Roderick, NTCA trainer/presenter

Ask the Experts – October 2016

QUESTION

I have a project in Park Ridge, Ill., which requires replacing the ceramic tile on the floor. Originally the owner decided to install a 12” x 24” tile, but due to sloping issues, such tile cannot be installed. Therefore the owner switched to a smaller tile, a 3” x 3” mosaic. Would the labor to install either size tiles be the same? If not, which one costs more? Please advise. Thank you!

ANSWER

Installing mosaic tile typically requires additional time for the cutting, straightening and handling of many individual tiles and grout joints even if, or sometimes because, they are mesh-mounted.

Installing large format tile such as 12” x 24” on a substrate that does not meet minimal acceptable flatness requirements of 1/8” in 10’ can require additional labor and materials for such activities as grinding and flattening the substrate with appropriate patch or self-leveling underlayment and their primers. Large-format tile (any tile with one side longer than 15”) will also require setting material designed for large-and-heavy tile. Due to any inherent warpage, this may require the use of a larger gauged trowel to assure required minimum bond coat coverage, which may result in the need for additional mortar.

I hope this helps.

Mark Heinlein,
NTCA Technical Presenter
[email protected]

QUESTION

Our rectified porcelain wall tile is three years old. We need to re-grout or caulk these thin grout lines. Which is better: silicone caulking or unsanded grout? For both I would use the caulking gun. Thank you!

ANSWER

Grouting is a complex and integral component of any tile installation. Grouting requires a degree of knowledge and experience with materials, environmental conditions, tile types, tools and techniques. Qualified professional tile contractors possess these traits.

I do not recommend using caulk in the joints between the tiles.

When removing the existing grout, take care not to chip the edges and corners of the tiles. You will want to ensure that you end up with a joint that is at least two-thirds the depth of the tile. Sharp utility knife blades, high quality grout rakes and oscillating tools with carbide grout removal blades are some of the tools you may want to consider using. It often requires a combination of all these tools to do the job.

ate-1Depending on the width of the joints you will want to select a grout that will adequately fill the joints. If using a portland cement-based grout:

  • Use unsanded grout for joints 1/8” wide and less.
  • Use sanded grout for joints 1/8” and wider.

Many manufacturers now make an acrylic, siliconized-acrylic or urethane based “single-component” or “ready-to-use” grout that may be acceptable for all ranges of grout joints. This information will be listed on the grout packaging. Whether the wall is in a dry or wet area, such as a shower, may make a difference for your grout selection.

You will want to grout the joints using an appropriate type of grout float making several passes at 45-degree angles to the joints to ensure you pack the joints full of grout. Then hold the float at a 90-degree angle to scrape the excess grout off the face of the tiles and across the joints, again at a 45-degree angle to the joints to avoid dragging any grout out of the joints. Based on the type of grout you are using, allow it to set up per the manufacturer’s instructions before forming the joints with an appropriate sponge. Then, based on the manufacturer’s instructions, clean the tile with single passes of a lightly damp sponge, once again at 45-degree angles to the tile. Change your grout cleaning water frequently. Again – read and closely follow the grout manufacturer’s instructions for the type of grout you have selected.

I do strongly recommend using a 100% silicone sealant (caulk) in the perimeter joints and any changes in plane (such as where your wall meets the floor and ceiling and where it meets an adjoining wall). Many grout manufacturers make 100% silicone sealant that color matches their grouts. Be sure to use a sealant (caulk) and grout from the same manufacturer.

Depending on the size of the wall, you will want to consider the need for expansion joints (soft joints) within the tile field.

ate-2I suggest you consider hiring a qualified tile contractor to perform this work. In addition to performing the work, a qualified contractor will be able to analyze the existing installation and help you determine the best materials for the job, saving you the hassle of trying to become an expert on your own. You may do a zip code search on either the NTCA or CTEF websites located at these links.

http://www.tile-assn.com/search/custom.asp?id=2759

https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/find-certified-tile-installers

I hope this helps.

Mark Heinlein,
NTCA Technical Trainer/Presenter
[email protected]

Ask the Experts – September 2016

SponsoredbyLaticreteQUESTION
When installing floor tiles, should you tile to the walls or leave a small space for movement and flexibility?

exp-01ANSWER
In answer to your question about whether to leave a space where a floor meets a wall – Yes! A gap of approximately 1/4” should be left at all changes in plane (for instance where a floor meets a wall) around the perimeter of the installation. This gap should be present in the underlayment and tile. If no trim will be installed to cover the gap, a “soft joint” can be made with appropriate sealant, or certain trim profiles can be installed to accommodate movement and expansion. This gap should also be left where tile abuts cabinetry, pipes or other permanent fixtures. Any other change in plane such as where a wall meets another wall must also have a soft joint installed to allow for movement and expansion. Also, expansion joints must be properly placed and installed in the tile field depending on the location and size of the installation. Additionally, control joints and saw cut joints in concrete must be honored through the surface of the tile to avoid future cracks in the finished installation. These specifications and the many, many other details related to a successful tile installation can be handled by your qualified contractor and certified labor.

– Mark Heinlein,
NTCA technical trainer/presenter

QUESTION
I have a job we are installing a wet bed on top of concrete and I would like to install an uncoupling membrane on top of the wet bed for crack prevention. My question is, will an uncoupling membrane help to prevent cracks in the concrete from penetrating through to the tile?

ANSWER
There are many products and some installation methods that can help mitigate in-plane cracks from telegraphing to the tile surface.

Manufacturers of uncoupling membranes are best at describing the performance characteristics they warrant their individual products for. If you share with me your geographic location and contact information I can request a technical representative from that company get in direct contact with you, or your preferred uncoupling membrane distributor should be able to put you in touch with a technical representative from the company.

Since it sounds like you are installing a mortar bed, perhaps installing a cleavage membrane to create an unbonded mortar bed system may be an additional solution for you to consider. Details for this type of installation can be found in the Method F111 in the TCNA Handbook for Ceramic, Glass and Stone Tile Installation.

– Mark Heinlein,
NTCA technical trainer/presenter

Ask the Experts – August 2016

SponsoredbyLaticreteThe following conversation took place between a contractor and NTCA technical trainer/presenter Mark Heinlein.

QUESTION

I would like some feedback on a recurring issue with a shower pan that was installed about a year ago (see attached pictures). The curbless shower pan is staying damp and not drying out even after days with electric heat set at 85 degrees.

The installation procedure used was as follows:

  • Prepan liner
  • Membrane over prepan
  • Mud sloped to drain
  • Liquid-applied waterproofing over pan and up inside and outside walls
  • Heated floor (skimcoated)
  • Liquid-applied waterproofing over that

I am looking for a way to rectify this issue and to prevent it from occurring in the future with light colored stone.

exp-01

ANSWER

I have reviewed the photos you sent and read the description of your installation and have a couple of questions.

Did you install a pre-slope and liner with a clamping ring drain?  Or did you use a bonding flange-type drain, or a divot method?

Are the fixed glass panels mounted with fasteners (i.e. screws) to the floor/pan?

Please let me know.

I suspect that water may have pooled in low spots beneath the tiles that has caused the minerals in the soft marble to stain.

– Mark Heinlein,
NTCA technical trainer/presenter

QUESTION

Yes, there was a pre-slope drain with a clamping ring drain.  Workers installing the shower door said they drilled only through the tile for the shower door. There is really no area for water to pool due to the mosaic tile being installed with a small notched trowel.

If they penetrated through our waterproofing and mud bed, do you think that could have created the issue by the shower door?

ANSWER

Yes. Very likely the screws were longer than the thickness of the tile. If the liquid-applied waterproofing applied to the surface of mud bed / heat mat installation was penetrated, water can seep into the screw holes and wick into the bond coat and up into the stones. By what I can see in the photos, it appears this is the area where the staining has occurred.

Required mortar-bond coat coverage in a wet area, especially for natural stone, is 95% minimum. It is even more critical to have full-coverage bonding of soft stone on a shower floor. Were you able to get full coverage with a small notched trowel? There may be voids in the bond coat that are filing with water and staining the tile from beneath.

I also have some concerns about encapsulating the mud bed and heat system with a liner at the bottom and one or two layers of liquid applied membrane on top. How is the topical liquid membrane making a waterproof connection to the clamping ring drain?

Please take a look at TCNA Handbook Methods B421-15 and 422-15 for details regarding bonded waterproofing membranes on a sloped mortar bed shower receptor.

If you find there is no water entering through the screw holes, and if you have a good connection of the liquid waterproofing to the clamping ring drain, and if you have full-mortar bond coat coverage under the tile, this may be an example of when water stains soft stone tiles in shower pans in many types of installations. This phenomenon is currently being researched by an NTCA Technical Sub-Committee.

– Mark Heinlein,
NTCA technical trainer/presenter

Ask the Experts – July 2016

SponsoredbyLaticreteQUESTION

I am trying to find out if tile can be installed over tile. I have a ranch house in Florida built in the late ’70s with an original slab floor and terrazzo. Ten or so years ago the then-owner installed 12” x 12” tiles over the terrazzo. We want a new tile floor but do not want to remove the current tile. I know it’s “all about that base,” and our current tile floors are solid as a ROCK, level, not a single hollow or loose spot anywhere. As a matter of fact, it is almost impossible to get this tile off! No contractor will lay tile over tile, but I have read many, many articles online – from contractors – that say it can be done. What do you say? Thank you!!!

ANSWER

Thank you for contacting the National Tile Contractors Association.

Cementitious terrazzo is really just a type of mortar bed that has been ground very smooth. The only problem with going over it is the terrazzo is usually highly finished or waxed, with multiple layers. This finish must be completely removed and the terrazzo re-ground to open up its pores before tile installation. When properly prepared with the right materials, it becomes an excellent substrate for a new tile surface.

A qualified tile contractor is the best person to determine whether your existing tile installation is well bonded to the terrazzo.

expert-01

Twin City Tile Co. Ltd., of Kitchener, Ontario, was responsible for restoring the Registry Office of the Waterloo Region, which was constructed in 1938 and designated as a Heritage Landmark by the Historical Society. This included the original terrazzo floors, many of which consisted of nine cement colors and eight different colors of terrazzo chips of various sizes, with intricate geometric patterns and three different thicknesses of zinc and solid brass strips. Although you wouldn’t want to tile over a terrazzo floor of this quality and beauty, terrazzo CAN be an excellent substrate for tile, given the proper preparation by a qualified tile contractor.

Tile-over-tile is a method in the Tile Council of North America’s TCNA Handbook for Ceramic, Glass and Stone Tile Installation, providing the bottom layer of tile is well bonded and properly prepared to accept the bonding materials for the new layer of tile. This can be done by scarifying or grinding the surface of the existing tile and/or by applying an appropriate primer that will allow the new setting material to achieve a proper bond. Grinding the surface of existing tile can create a lot of dust and may release potentially hazardous particles into the air from the materials used in the glaze. It is best to have this work performed by a certified, experienced professional installer. Such an installer will also be familiar with the primers and setting materials that will work best for this type of installation.

A well-experienced, qualified, certified tile installer/contractor will know and understand the methods detailed in the TCNA Handbook and will be able to examine your existing installation and determine the best approach for the new tile. Look for a contractor who is a CTEF Certified Tile Installer and a member of the National Tile Contractors Association. I have included links below to help you find one near you. A contractor who is a member of the NTCA has a direct connection to us for any technical advice and support if needed.

If this is an above-ground construction or on a wood frame subfloor, consideration must be made to support the weight of the new tile installation. A qualified tile contractor can assist with this, but an additional contractor or engineering assessment may be required. Floor-height transitions to other areas must also be considered. The contractor you eventually hire should discuss this with you.

To locate an NTCA member contractor: http://www.tile-assn.com/search/custom.asp?id=2759

To locate a Certified Tile Installer: https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/find-certified-tile-installers

I hope this helps!

Mark Heinlein
NTCA Technical Trainer/Presenter

Ask The Experts – June 2016

SponsoredbyLaticreteQUESTION
I have a bathroom that was just retiled: floor, tub and shower walls, using ceramic tile, and a polymer-modified, cement-based, sanded grout with a stain-resistant additive. There are a few areas where the grout has set up like powder and can be rubbed out. I’m looking for some reasons that could cause the grout to set up like powder and fall out.

ANSWER
Selection, mixing, installation, curing, cleaning and environmental conditions at the time of grouting all play a critical role in the success of the installation. There are many potential reasons for this to have occurred.

Most are related to improper preparation, mixing, proportioning of powder and liquid, slaking, re-tempering or curing of the grout. Environmental conditions at the time of grouting and curing such as exposure to hot air flow, direct sunlight, a very dry atmosphere or freezing could also cause this condition to occur.

Over-washing of the grout immediately after packing the joints or cleaning cured grout with acidic cleaners may contribute to this problem.

In some instances, a very highly-absorptive tile or foreign material in the joints may cause rapid dehydration of the grout that may lead to this happening.

Without knowing the particulars at the time of your grout installation it is not possible to narrow it down further to a specific cause or group of causes.

– Mark Heinlein,
NTCA Technical Trainer

FURTHER COMMENT
That is very helpful. What would the needed fix be regarding the powdery grout? Does it have to be removed and re-grouted?

RESPONSE
It may be possible to slowly rehydrate the grout by misting with water and covering with kraft paper for several days and re-misting as needed. However, since an additive other than water was used to mix the grout, I would contact the grout manufacturer and ask their opinion regarding rehydration. Otherwise, it will likely be necessary to remove the grout. When removing the grout, take care to not chip the edges of the tiles or damage the waterproofing system under the tiles. – M.H.

QUESTION
This is actually a tool question. I am looking to purchase a snap cutter and wet saw capable of handling larger format tile (up to 48”). Any suggestions?

ANSWER
It certainly is important to have the right tools for the task at hand and to invest in quality tools that will perform well for a long time.

There are many manufacturers that produce the type of equipment you are looking for. While I can’t provide a recommendation for a particular make or model, I can give you a listing of some of the tool and equipment manufacturers that currently sponsor Partnering for Success and are Workshop/Educational Program Trailer sponsors. Some of them make the type of equipment you are looking for.

I recommend you take a look at what these manufacturers have to offer and talk to other craft persons that may have experience with similar tools.

Here is a list, but it may not be all inclusive:

  • Alpha Professional Tools
  • Corona Bellota
  • Dewalt
  • European Tile Masters
  • Husqvarna
  • Mark E Industries
  • Marshalltown
  • Miracle
  • MLT
  • Progress Profiles
  • QEP
  • Rubi Tools
  • Russo Trading Company
  • SGM
  • Tuscan Leveling

It doesn’t appear that you are a member of the NTCA. As a professional tile contractor you will find membership to be extremely rewarding and can get in on the effort to achieve Qualified Labor status and grow your professional potential. There is more information at www.tile-assn.com or you can contact me for information how to join this amazing group.

Thanks for the contact and good luck with your research!

– Mark Heinlein,
NTCA Technical Trainer

Ask the Experts – May 2016

SponsoredbyLaticreteQUESTION

Is there any TCNA or industry information that indicates that rounded-top porcelain cove base is not meant for situations where tile is installed on the walls above the base (since it has a rounded top)? I’d also like to know how the cove base is to be installed in conjunction with floor tile. I stated in my RFP to “install metal trim strips when coordinating porcelain tile pieces are not available.” Given that the cove base option for a selected tile series has a rounded top and foot, this causes a potential for an unclean install. The options that the contractor has given us are:

  • Using the wall base and filling in the rounded top with an enlarged grout joint,
  • Cutting the wall tile and butting it to the floor tile with either a grout or caulk joint at the connection, or
  • Field-cutting the rounded tip of the wall base off

These are not preferred options for the government, as these lead to maintenance issues down the road for the facility.

Do you have any idea how I can respond to this or help with any industry or TCNA info? Thanks so much!

ANSWER

There is no such language in the TCNA Handbook or in any of the ANSI manuals.

I believe that the #3 solution is the proper method, and how my contracting company usually accomplished this detail if round top cove was the only cove available (if cove was required). Be sure to stone the cut, and although it will have a slightly different appearance than a factory edge, it will not be a maintenance issue. Since the tile cove is round footed, it is designed to be top-set.

There is another option that is very effective, if somewhat more expensive. Profile and edge manufacturers make stainless steel coves (with corner trims available) with different sizes available to match the thickness of your tile. Very beautiful, easy to install, and cool, too!

If cove is not required by code, then just use the field tile at all inside corners with a joint filled with foam backer rod and ASTM C920 sealant (100% silicone or single part urethane). Be sure that the tile is not set tight and that the joint is completely free of mortar and grout.

– Michael Whistler,
NTCA technical trainer

QUESTION

We are currently working on a project that includes 30,000 sq. ft. of penny round tiles that were manufactured in Japan. It’s our understanding that penny rounds are classified as a specialty tile and therefore, very little criteria has been set regarding the mounting of them. We are having some issues with the specified product and need a third party to evaluate the mounting of the tile. Can you offer some assistance or point us in a direction regarding mounting issues with mosaics, in particular penny rounds?

experts-01 Attached are pictures of some of the mounting problems, including inconsistent spacing, sheets not being square and excessive mesh where the sheets meet up with one another. Another problem is that the individual tiles release from the mesh backing as soon as they get wet (from thinset).

may-experts-02Two manufacturers’ reps were here last week to review the problems. Their solution is to either send us a video or one of their Japanese installers to show us how to install the tile. As you may imagine we took exception to their suggestion. We have plenty of experience with the installation of penny round tile and have processed through many issues regarding sheeting and wall-washing concerns. What we are in search of, is some guideline or criteria that we can show ownership so they can assess their expectations more in line with industry standards. Any assistance you can share with us would be greatly appreciated.

ANSWER 1

You certainly seem to understand all of the issues and have the experience to install penny round mosaics, which are difficult at best. The tiles you have been provided appear to have an especially flimsy mesh backing, and the inconsistent spacing and water-soluble adhesive is not going to help matters.

Obviously, a proper substrate that meets minimum deflection and flatness requirements and using the correct mortar and troweling method to achieve a minimum of 80% coverage on each tile with no squeeze-through will be critical.

I’m almost thinking that to have the manufacturer send their installer to show you how it’s done (for the duration of the project) might be a way to bring the manufacturer on board with some liability for the installation.

Has all of the tile been manufactured and delivered? Have you discussed the matter with the owner and architect?

Other than what Katelyn has provided below and the general workmanship requirements found in the TCNA Handbook and ANSI standards, I am not immediately coming up with anything that I can send you. I will check with my colleagues and get back to you.

Perhaps the best approach will be to hire a recognized consultant to come in and serve as a third party to view the tiles and installation area and scope of work and provide you with a written opinion.

– Mark Heinlein,
NTCA technical trainer

ANSWER 2

From a third party testing lab’s perspective, there is no way to measure mounting variation of penny round, mounted ceramic mosaic tiles. The mounting variation test methods for mounted tile are only performed on square mosaic tiles. I’ve included an excerpt from ANSI A137.1 Specification for Ceramic Tile below:
9.5 Test Method for Mounting Variations
9.5.1 This method is only valid for mosaic tiles with the following characteristics:

  • Nominally square
  • Nominal sizes of 1 inch x 1 inch (25.4 mm x 25.4 mm) to 3 inches x 3 inches (76.2 mm x 76.2 mm)
  • With straight edges

Our lab does not provide reports based on expert opinion so you may need to hire an independent consultant if that is something you are looking for. Please let me know if you are interested in an independent consultant and I’d be happy to send you the contact information for one.

– Katelyn Simpson,
TCNA laboratory manager

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